'PvE vs. PvP!' 'Grind vs. your MOM!' threads, and You.

[Spooky]

So, I see these threads becoming more of a presence recently... and not in a good way. Let's have a little chat, shall we?

I am well aware that many view the issue of grind as a bone of contention. I'm sure that there are as many different reasons for and against this as there are people holding opinions on the matter - and that is fine. The problem is that it seems without fail, these threads must degenerate into personal attacks and flame wars... and that's not where it's at, hep cats.

Let me say first: the Devs are aware of the grind issue. There have been countless threads here, there, everywhere, where people have made their voices very vehemently heard. If you are coming to post a thread about how pissed off you are over so and so in the hopes that it will get attention; simply put: Don't. I think that you will find that these threads have the opposite of the effect that they are intended to create; as someone that reads the threads across various forums not limited to our own, I can say it is tiring to watch people trying to beat each other to death in the same mannerisms over and over again. One can only imagine what this must feel like for the developers and designers, their shoulders being that which most of the 'blame' is heaped upon. All of this bitterness, outright hostility? Isn't needed. You know what is? Ideas, and productive conversations.

The first rule to accomplishing something like that is to set aside your 'bias.' This thought train that this all MUST be PvE vs. PvP - that they are two seperate entities that can only prosper by cannibalizing the other; never to find a mutual equilibrium, is counterproductive to say it mildly. At its worst, it only further fuels the problem by creating unfair stereotypes of gamers based on their 'preferences' like those carebear PvErs who want grind to keep PvPers down because they're afraid of their l337 skillz, and those PvPers who are lazy antisocial bastards that want everything handed to them from the word go. You see what I mean? These are the kind of things I have seen, ad nauseum. It is not fair to treat someone else with bias based on their preference, and then belittle their opinions or outright refuse to consider them merely because someone isn't in the same 'faction' as you are.

Like it or not, Guild Wars is a massively multiplayer game. Not in the EverQuest sense, but it certainly is multiplayer with a massive user base, and that in itself is enough to justify the statement. As anyone who has had any kind of previous experience with these games, or worked in a position where you are required to deal with a lot of people should know, the magic word here is compromise. When you have so many different individuals with varied backgrounds, wants, desires, thoughts.. it is impossible to come up with something that is guaranteed to please everyone absolutely. What you can do is look for the middle ground - a way that lets the most people enjoy the game without 'stepping on toes', as it were. In order to really work at compromise, you have to be able to see things from both sides; not just your own. Let me give you an example:

Let us say that you have a friend. Your friend has set you up on a blind date, with someone. You don't know this person, but your friend assures you that they are beautiful/handsome (depending on which gender this would be for your date) and that you've got nothing to worry about. So you meet your blind date, and your friend was true to their word, your date is stunning. Everything goes well, you have a blast, thinking this might finally be the one... until the evening is over, and your date suddenly splits your skull open with a pickaxe. Your friend forgot to tell you that your date was a psychotic murderer.

Why did this happen? Because your friend only considered half of the equation - looks. The other half, personality, as i'm sure you would realize if you weren't dead with a pickaxe in your skull - is just as important. In the context of game design, this is no different. PvE and PvP are both aspects of the game, and they both need to be considered equally as such.

That's just something to keep in mind for future discussions. There is a reason this site is called "Guild Wars Guru" and no, it isn't because the Administration is full of themselves. Well, some of us are. But the reason is that we are students of the game, and we aspire to better it not just for ourselves - but everyone else. If all we wanted was to flame and tear down each other, we would have called our site "Guild Wars Backyard Wrestling." So try to keep an open mind, and try to work together to present better solutions - I promise you that people are listening, but you've got to be telling them something more than 'tiz sux' .. and if the extreme RAGE you've got is so bad that you must push something, then push a push pop. Everyone will be the better for it.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[TopGun]

Well said.

[ApOcAlYpSe]

Finally someone with something intelligent to say on the matter. Its great to see that there are people out there who dont have to flame each other to prove a point.

[Willow]

Excellent and well said. And hilariously titled.

[Kyo Yuy]

Haha, that reminds me why I don't like going to sites with "Debate" or "Intelligent Argument" forums. Those things invariably turn to flame wars instead of thoughtful discussion.

Spooky, your post is very provocative... it makes me want to split someone's skull open with a pickaxe... >_>;

Guild Wars was created in order to resolve some of the issues in "traditional" MMORPGs... but this has inevitably created more issues. In particular, Guild Wars wants to introduce new elements while preserving the quality of older MMORPG elements - like Spooky said, it's impossible to please everyone, so instead, Guild Wars tries to give a little bit to every kind of player. That said, very few players will say that Guild Wars is everything that they wanted in an online game (I have a few gripes with the PvP myself... but it's still a fun game, so I'm not going to complain ^_~).

I hope this thread encourages people to think more about the parts of Guild Wars that they enjoy, instead of the parts they dislike.

[Lazarus]

I was going to suggest that the Moderators of the forums here add the word "grind" to the language filter, but with this post I will hold off and see what other ideas are put forth. Thank you, Spooky.

Lazarus

[Levian Lain]

Nicely put, I look forward to more constructive posts like this.

[Jackell]

Much agreed. I have ideas of how to solve the situation, but I've been refraining from posting them because their just going to turn into a flame fest no matter what.

Well said, Spooky. Perhaps we can get the "grind" threads back into being constructive, instead of character assasination.

[Phantom Force]

Spooky always puts it as is and tells it like it is. Problem is some people don't even think before acting. (I for myself am one of them at times about certain issues, but certainly not about the grind). I'm very happy with this game thus far, and look forward to continue playing it. As Spooky said we are all individuals, no one person is the same. Just play the game and enjoy it, Devs will do what they think is needed to keep the game popular and make players happy. If you're still unsatisfied you have other options. I don't think anyone can disagree is the best MMORPG or CORPG that anyone has played or seen yet. GW is a new beginning IMO and has a set a new bar for online gaming. Props to Spooky and GW, keep working hard.

[Zuggy]

I just started using this forum if there are more posts like this I'm happy

I was using the guild-hall.net forums but they're just a bunch of flamers. Nicely put and well written.

[EnDinG]

Very nice. Two thumbs up. =)

[PieXags]

That's problably my favorite post out of every single one in these boards. The part with the pickaxe made me grin a fair bit, great feeling to the entire thing. And finally, someone addressing the immense amount of grind threads out there.

I'm marking this on my calendar.

[Crom the Conqueror]

Amen, well said.

[Sam Katha]

Thank you spooky. I was beggining to lose faith. Maybe things will quite down now. But then again, even as I read this, I see two PvP vs PvE flame threads still at the top of the list

[Xavz]

Well said, Spooky. This forum needed this.

[DrSLUGFly]

very well said. That happened to me once. Took me a week to get the pickaxe out and another 2 weeks to recover my spispispi speaking skills. On that note, a suggestion I had made in one of those very same firestorm threads on PvE and PvP:

I love that PvP has an influence on PvE (I'm fully PvE player myself). I feel like the world is more full because the success of my server on PvP has an effect on my game. It makes me want to root for my team, even though I'm not fighting myself. (If somebody doesn't know then I won't spoil, but it pays to have "the favor of the gods")

I would like it if there were some way that PvE players could help PvP players also, and I think that this is directly connected to the fact that 90% of the people who complain about "grind" are PvP players. Perhaps if there was something that we as guilds did that helped them it could even the balance. Maybe certain quests unlock skills for a random 50 PvP only characters, or add these skills as purchasable at the Skill Trainer for the next 30 minutes or 1 hour or something. I know it would be tough to balance, but the fact that the success of a team I've never seen nor heard of playing an aspect of the game that I have no interest in has a direct influence on what happens to me and where I can go in my game is so intriguing to me. As Spooky said, it is NOT us versus them, it's all we....

weeeeeeeee....

[The Virago]

Well said.

The matter of contention reminds me of the 'holocron grind' in the game 'Star Wars Galaxies'. If you were there, you know of what I speak. If not, briefly, anyone who wanted to be a Jedi (No Holds Barred PvP class) had to complete random other professions to the point of mastery (level cap, so to speak).

The result was pure horror for the rest of the game, because you had people who didn't give a crap about you enjoying your profession, they just wanted to grind through it as quickly as possible to 'get to Jedi'. The usual anecdotes are implied -- everything from walking over other players, to stealing business from them, to generally being as inconsiderate as possible.

This is what I fear about the current structure. I fear PvP players who don't give a crap about the PvE experience ruining groups, missions, and interaction because the only thing on their mind is getting that skill unlocked.

With that said, I do feel PvP players should earn their skills the same way I have to... and I truly think that doing so is the best way to understand your class and be the best player you can. I know those who prefer the "73mp£473 0ƒ Ð00m" to knowledge and figure there's nothing but knowing which buttons to push and when don't 'get this', but coming from the old school of PvP, I can tell you it has merit even if it does mean patience is a required ingredient.

Honestly, a lot of the strident posts on getting UAS sound to me like this 'NOW NOW NOW' mindset that took most of the fun out of PvP for me (the reason I'm currently PvE exclusively).

As far as compromise goes -- I think it is up to the folks who want UAS and won't hear anything that isn't 'Yes' to step back and consider options and alternatives. It is pretty clear from AreaNet that UAS isn't going to happen. But that doesn't mean some other method is out of the question. The only remaining unknown is whether or not there is anyone out there who can come up with something that is a workable compromise.

Edit: Thoughts on a compromise...

[DrSLUGFly]

color me noob and call me purple... what is UAS?

[Xellos]

Unlock-All-Skills.

[DrSLUGFly]

/doh

I guessed at that after I had written it... but decided to post anyway.